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PP Negaton?
Topic Started: Oct 8 2009, 05:54 AM (450 Views)
topdogtaz218
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Ok so all (payment power) keywords can't be negated or just some?
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unclechawie
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No and Yes. Payment powers in and of themselves can't be negated however the usage of a payment power creates a payment power effect. That is what is negateable. Typically the cards that can do so will instruct you to negate target effect or target payment power effect. In essence you can also "negate" a payment power effect by removing it's target.
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topdogtaz218
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ok but i need to know which (payment power) keywords can't be negated by cards like Batman, cape and cowl, or utility belt.
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unclechawie
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. A payment power is a power on a card that has an -> in it. The cost is before the -> and the effect is after. Please clarify your question a little bit and I think we may be able to help you get the answer your looking for.
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HeroComplex
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topdogtaz218
Oct 8 2009, 05:54 AM
Ok so all (payment power) keywords can't be negated or just some?
It sounds like you're merging two different things from Marvel Evolution. 1) Effects from the Shift-based payment powers can't be negated, because that's a special part of the rules for Shift. 2) Payment powers that are represented by keywords won't be affected by cards that affect "payment powers," like Scrambler.

So in terms of negation---Shift's special rules prevent anyone from negating its effects. But other payment effects, whether from written out powers or other keywords, can still be negated just fine.

Quote:
 
501.1a Game text referring to “payment powers” refers only to powers with a printed arrow (>>>), and doesn’t refer to keywords which represent payment powers (like shift and evasion). However, references to payment powers in these rules do refer to such keyword powers, and using such keyword powers does create payment effects.

706.18 "Shift" is a keyword that represents three powers. Payment effects from these powers can’t be negated by players:
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topdogtaz218
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HeroComplex
Oct 8 2009, 05:51 PM
topdogtaz218
Oct 8 2009, 05:54 AM
Ok so all (payment power) keywords can't be negated or just some?
It sounds like you're merging two different things from Marvel Evolution. 1) Effects from the Shift-based payment powers can't be negated, because that's a special part of the rules for Shift. 2) Payment powers that are represented by keywords won't be affected by cards that affect "payment powers," like Scrambler.

So in terms of negation---Shift's special rules prevent anyone from negating its effects. But other payment effects, whether from written out powers or other keywords, can still be negated just fine.

Quote:
 
501.1aGame text referring to “payment powers” refers only to powers with a printed arrow (>>>), and doesn’t refer to keywords which represent payment powers (like shift and evasion). However, references to payment powers in these rules do refer to such keyword powers, and using such keyword powers does create payment effects.

706.18"Shift" is a keyword that represents three powers. Payment effects from these powers can’t be negated by players:
ooo ok so only shift is the one that can't be negated by those cards....thanks
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HeraldofDoom
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topdogtaz218
Oct 8 2009, 06:29 PM
HeroComplex
Oct 8 2009, 05:51 PM
topdogtaz218
Oct 8 2009, 05:54 AM
Ok so all (payment power) keywords can't be negated or just some?
It sounds like you're merging two different things from Marvel Evolution. 1) Effects from the Shift-based payment powers can't be negated, because that's a special part of the rules for Shift. 2) Payment powers that are represented by keywords won't be affected by cards that affect "payment powers," like Scrambler.

So in terms of negation---Shift's special rules prevent anyone from negating its effects. But other payment effects, whether from written out powers or other keywords, can still be negated just fine.

Quote:
 
501.1aGame text referring to “payment powers” refers only to powers with a printed arrow (>>>), and doesn’t refer to keywords which represent payment powers (like shift and evasion). However, references to payment powers in these rules do refer to such keyword powers, and using such keyword powers does create payment effects.

706.18"Shift" is a keyword that represents three powers. Payment effects from these powers can’t be negated by players:
ooo ok so only shift is the one that can't be negated by those cards....thanks
Well, you're close...

Evasion is also a payment power that isn't a payment power, since it is a keyword that represents one.

So, Evasion AND Shift cannot be negated by cards that negate payment powers.
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HeroComplex
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HeraldofDoom
Oct 8 2009, 07:32 PM
Well, you're close...

Evasion is also a payment power that isn't a payment power, since it is a keyword that represents one.

So, Evasion AND Shift cannot be negated by cards that negate payment powers.
As I said above, it sounds like you're confusing two different rules issues from the Marvel Evolution set.

First, negation as a concept only applies to effects, not powers---powers can be lost, or you can prevent a power from being used, but there's no such thing as negating it. Effects are the only things that can ever be negated, since by the definition negating means removing something from the chain.

Keeping that terminology in mind---you can't negate Shift's effects because of a specific rule in the definition of Shift. Clearly, Shift's definition doesn't apply to other keywords.

The CRD change that does affect Evasion is much more narrow. All that rule does is hide payment powers from cards that refer to them, like Scrambler or the first half of Batman, Cape and Cowl. This rule does not prevent you from negating Evasion's effect.

To reiterate, the payment effect from Evasion can absolutely be negated.
Edited by HeroComplex, Oct 8 2009, 07:50 PM.
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vs_savant2
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I art a noob. And me needs read more better rules.
Edited by vs_savant2, Oct 8 2009, 08:36 PM.
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HeroComplex
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vs_savant2
Oct 8 2009, 07:52 PM
But that would be a bad idea to negate the Evasion, because they could pretty much just evade again after you negated the first time.
That's actually not likely---stunning the character is a cost for using the power that Evasion represents. You have to stun the character as part of playing the effect, and negating an effect never refunds its costs.
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vs_savant2
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HeroComplex
Oct 8 2009, 08:27 PM
vs_savant2
Oct 8 2009, 07:52 PM
But that would be a bad idea to negate the Evasion, because they could pretty much just evade again after you negated the first time.
That's actually not likely---stunning the character is a cost for using the power that Evasion represents. You have to stun the character as part of playing the effect, and negating an effect never refunds its costs.
My bad your right.

Stun this character>>>>Recover it blah blah blah.

So negating the cover just means the character would have to be recovered normally or KO'd.

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topdogtaz218
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ok so like i said earlier, shift is the only one that can't be affected by scrambler, or batman or utility belt....correct?
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HeroComplex
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topdogtaz218
Oct 9 2009, 02:55 PM
ok so like i said earlier, shift is the only one that can't be affected by scrambler, or batman or utility belt....correct?
No, you're still merging the two different rules---just in the opposite direction now. As I said above, and as the two CRD excerpts that I quoted demonstrate, two entirely different rules being conflated here.

The effects of Shift, by definition, can't be negated. The effects of other payment powers absolutely can be, regardless of whether they're written out or just represented by keywords.

But Scrambler and the first half of Batman, Cape and Cowl were my examples of powers which won't affect any of the keywords that represent payment powers. Scrambler and Batman's first power are precisely the kinds of powers that 501.1a is talking about.
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topdogtaz218
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ok so what your saying is that the first half of batman's effect can't affect keywords that represent PPs...but his second effects can negate them with the exception of "shift"?
Edited by topdogtaz218, Oct 11 2009, 02:18 AM.
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HeroComplex
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That's the gist---because his first power refers to a payment power, and his second power refers to a payment effect.
Edited by HeroComplex, Oct 11 2009, 09:13 PM.
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