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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 20 2009, 11:23 PM (6,868 Views) | |
| cyke | Oct 23 2009, 09:54 PM Post #91 |
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Maurice (YEOOW YEOOW!)
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Not all christian sects believe that the Father, the Son and the holy ghost are one and the same, but in fact three seperate entities. Just like not all christian sects believe the same way to perfrom batptism, some do it by dunking all the way under the water, while others sprinkle a few drops. My point is, that, simply calling yourself christian doesn't mean everyone who also does so, shares the same interpretations of bible verses. |
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| Shadowtrooper | Oct 24 2009, 04:19 AM Post #92 |
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I Hate Rebel Scum!
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You know being latin I always heard that last part of the song as "sexua" instead of "ce soir". It sounds just like it too. I guess I should of looked it up instead of just assuming. Anyway I read an article once that explained that birds evolved from reptiles, hence the scales in their legs. Common ancestor and stuff like that. As such reptiles are born from eggs so we can pretty much establish by fact that the egg came first, and a few million years later the chicken followed. As for praying to Christ? Well you have to look into the Bible and see the prayer that Jesus actually taught us: Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. [For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.] Amen. The red part was added later by the Church. As you can see Jesus taught us only to pray to the Father. There is no mention of Him or the Holy Spirit in this prayer. So if we use this prayer no matter what people say we would only be praying to the Father, and you would not be breaking any Commandments cause you are not praying to anyone else. If the Catholic Roman Church or any other church of Christian beliefs decided to create other prayers then thats their problem. Jesus kept us in check all the way. Smart fellow huh? |
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| cyke | Oct 24 2009, 12:23 PM Post #93 |
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Maurice (YEOOW YEOOW!)
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To my knowledge no one prays directly to Christ, but always to the father, but no one may cometh to the father except by me- john 14-6., so Jesus is believed to be the intermediate between a person and their heavenly father. But jesus is not the father, just the first begotten son. According to some. Also, don't cathlotics pray to many different saints? Isn't this in direct contrast with no other gods before rules, or is this some loophole? |
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| kaleeshwarrior | Oct 24 2009, 02:23 PM Post #94 |
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My brother was into Catholicism for a year or so, and much of my mother's side of the family are Catholic. If I remember correctly (and note that this is based off what I remember hearing), they view the "prayers" to saints more as "petitions" to them, like asking them to pray for you in a similar manner as asking a friend or pastor to do so. |
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| Shadowtrooper | Oct 24 2009, 06:42 PM Post #95 |
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I Hate Rebel Scum!
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This is the cause for lost of confusion. The word for the action is "venerar" in spanish which can be directly translated to "venerate". It is not the act of worshipping, but the act of honoring or regarding with feelings of respect. You see Saints much like the Virgin Mary hold a very close place to God. So not only do Catholics pray to God but also venerate those who have achieved what they wish to achieve which is being close to God. Another reason Catholics do this is because (in the case of the Virgin Mary) she has the power to intervene with God, and "help" us so that God grants us that which we are asking for, be it the health of a relative, or strength in our times of need. The reason this is believed is that when Jesus (who is the same as the Father) was asked by Mary to help in the Weddings of Cana in Galilee when the wine ran out of the celebration he said: "woman it is not yet my time". Still she told the servants (or ushers) at the wedding to follow his instructions and he ended up having them fill 6 pitchers with water and turned the water into wine. The 4th commandment states: "Honor thy father and mother" and Jesus followed that commandment and performed his first miracle at the request of his mother despite not yet being his time to do so. So as you can deduce those of Catholic beliefs venerate Mary (and Saints) and ask for her powers of intervention in the hopes that even if it is not in God's plan to grant us health or whatever it is we are asking we might be able to get it. Its all very confusing, but which religion isn't. Perhaps I am not the best person to explain this whole concept as I am in no way a scholar of the Catholic Religion. So if you find a few holes in the story or explanation please don't hold it against me. |
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| EvilDave | Oct 24 2009, 07:51 PM Post #96 |
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All right, let me just say this. First, we're trying to avoid religious debate here. While it is being a thoughtful discussion and nobody's feelings are being attacked or hurt, it is sadly completly off-subject. The goal of this is to talk about yourself and your dreams; many have talked a lot about their current life, but only a few of us have talked about dreams, aspirations, and what we're doing to move towards them. Talk about those. I've talked about my love of the theater, and how I am rehersing daily with singing lessons and have begun performing in community theater, and my deep study of keeping the body young and healthy for all of my years... talk about what you are doing to better yourself on a daily basis. For the final talk on religion, no, most of it does not make sense from an "outside the group" perspective. But religion, at its heart, is a fine organization for those who practice it (particularly modern religions, which emphasize peace and tranquility). They serve as a level of relief to some, the existence of a divine being and afterlife puts many at ease (the idea of dying off and simply ceasing to exist would terrorize many). And it gives a sense of community and togetherness, which everyone strives for somewhere in their life. Heck, as I've stated before, Hindu and Buddhism have sects that don't even believe in the same god (or even any god); but they are still together as a group and share a set of ideals which bonds them. So let it be, a few extremists use religion as a way to attack other groups, but they are very far and few between. |
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| topdogtaz218 | Oct 25 2009, 12:01 AM Post #97 |
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Well, you guys don't have to worry about me because i don't get offended. Actually that's the Christians that just say that they are, this is because a real christian would know that there is prophecy of the new testament in the Old and that Jesus said that the only commandments that you really have to follow are, love God above all things and love your neighbor as you love yourself, because if you follow those the rest just fall under them! Well don't mean to offend you but the "Catholic" religion is based on hypocrisy, look at the history. And NO Jesus didn't bring Religion he brought Salvation, plain and simple! Because if you read the history books you will see that the word Christians was used years later after the birth of the "church" but it was used as a mockery, this is because the word Christian really means " a little Christ", so they were mocking the followers! Now this is a question for everybody which is the only "religion" that is documented since almost the dawn of man? |
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| EvilDave | Oct 25 2009, 01:16 AM Post #98 |
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Various pagan religions are the first recording; truthfully they weren't truly religions as much as anything; they worshipped animals. Later the various pantheons (roman, Greek, Egyptian) derived out of those. Nobody is quite. Certain where the Judaic religion came from; recording happened much later in that portion of the world. On the other side of the world Buddhism showed as the "eastern" side; it was actually older concept, again still worshipping animals and spirits. Eventually different traditions broke out into Hinduism. Christianity derived ~300, combining the primary influxes of the Jewish religion with the primary diety believed to be derived from the Egyptian God Horus. Muslim religion later dismissed the new book, and insisted Jesus was just a prophet. Muhammad also said he was given visions, and was also derived as a prophet. And just for you, the latter date saints were derived under a belief that the corruption of religion and government was leading to Armageddon. It tries to aim for spread the "Trurh" in the 1900s. It seeks to spread peace and harmony, and is controversial for it's unwillingness to recognize government (no flag saluting, holidays, etc). It also teaches their members to evangalize a great deal, which has lead to the belief of the "men at the airport" etc. I can go into the other derrivites of religions if you need to. Judaism has the longest written history of still-existing religions, though Buddhism is believed to go back further (but is tougher to define, since it's not a fully-defined "religion"). |
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| topdogtaz218 | Oct 25 2009, 03:31 AM Post #99 |
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Actually the Judaic religion came before, eventhough it isn't documented as "Judaic" because they were not called that at the time! but paganism as you stated did come after, the estimated time that Paganism as is began during the time of the Tower of Babel, which is proven to be true of it's existence. Ok to begin the word pagan comes from the word pāgānus which means worshiper of false gods, so if that is what it means and it started at the time of the Tower then that means that there had to have been a world-wide religion that was followed. because if there wasn't a religion that was followed before had then why would they call that pagan, correct? Now what is the first book that ever spoke about this Tower, well obviously the Bible, so then with this we understand that the religion that came before that was with the one and only God Jehovah, so this means that people were following this GOD before anything else. Now if we know the story correctly what happen in that incident, well the tower collapsed and people couldn't speak to each other because they spoke different languages, which would explain the different "pagan" religions; Norse, Egyptian, Arab, Olympian...etc. ( non of which explain a creation and existence as detailed as the Bible) |
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| topdogtaz218 | Oct 25 2009, 03:43 AM Post #100 |
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And no disrespect to all Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, but the true shall set you free, if anyone has not yet done any research please do. Research Joseph Smith Jr. (Mormon founder) and Charles Taze Russell (JW Founder) and their relations with the Masons. Then you will hopefully see the light after so many years! |
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| Jdog | Oct 25 2009, 06:21 PM Post #101 |
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EvilDave is correct this isn't a religious thread...maybe we should form one tho . I think that when you ask about peoples lives, ideals, futures...etc their faith is a large part of those aspects and so it just kind of ooozes into the posts. A thought provoking question is this...Who really benefits from having all the different religions out there and different views of God? Really Satan the Devil would be the only one benefiting about all the confusion about who God really is etc.... With that in mind I must address one item and that is the Trinity. Many know that the word trinity is not found anywhere in the bible, and if you do some research on this subject you will see that it was introduced more than 300 years after Jesus death. The following is a citation from the New Catholic Encylopedia Volume 14 page 299 - "The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense, this is true.....The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century." Dominican priest Marie-Emile Boismard wrote in his book At the Dawn of Christianity - The birth of Dogmas: "The statement that there are three persons in one god...cannot be read anywhere in the New Testament" Really though the Bible speaks on the subject for itself. A quick example that comes to mind is: "Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand. 'Look! I can see heaven thrown open,' he said, 'and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God..'" Acts 7: 55, 56, The New Jerusalem Bible. This vision reveals that filled with God's active force or Holy Spirit he was able to see Jesus standing at the right hand of God. This vision was after Jesus had been resurrected by God and returned to heaven. Rather plainly showing that Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection, but rather a distinct spiritual being. Also there is no mention of a third person next to god. There are others that come to mind if you want to look them up in your own copy of the bible please do.... Mathew 26:39; John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28; 1 Corinthians 11:3. These scriptures all show that Jesus is a separate being. Last thought I will bring up is the one scripture that people feel supports the trinity. John 1:1 - In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. If you really look and meditate on that scripture you will see a few things... 1) The Word having a beginning. Colossians 1:15 supports that Jesus or The Word did indeed have a beginning. The Almighty God however has no beginning. Psalm 93:2 states that God has existed from time indefinite or forever. 2) The Word was with god....this ones pretty easy how can you be with yourself. 3) Lastly the Word was God.....nobody can deny that Jesus can be called a god. The bible calls him a Mighty God, a Wonderful Conselor, Prince of Peace. He is never at anytime called the Almighty God. Jesus is our savior, and he is deserving of deep respect and honor, however not worship. Props to ShadowTrooper for putting some bible verses out there, namely the Lords prayer which shows the way to pray. Think about the first part of that prayer...hallowed be thy name. Psalm 83:18 or Exodus 6:3 gives that name. The name of the true God and the only one deserving of our worship. |
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| unclechawie | Oct 25 2009, 07:59 PM Post #102 |
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Hey topdog, Lay off insulting a religion please. What you said could seem offensive to some which is what we are trying to avoid. Edited by unclechawie, Oct 25 2009, 08:03 PM.
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| EvilDave | Oct 25 2009, 08:48 PM Post #103 |
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Eh, guess nobody likes the idea of turning this into a thread to talk about goals now that we've talked about who we are; this has more-or-less become a religious thread, so as long as people try to keep it calm I have no issue with it staying as such; many people relate themselves to their religion after all. I mean, JD the contraryness of religion is easy to trace. A lot of people dismiss it with "spiritual connection" talk (we're all one spiritually, tough to imagine if they also believe in a heaven/hell scenario). Ultimately however you look at it, the "3 as one" argument has difficulties; and again if you want to view things scientifically it's because the character "Christ" is more than likely derived from a 1230 BC Egyptian God named Horus, which would explain the need to blend "3 as 1" (the primary foundation of Christianity is Judaism (Monotheistic extreme), but the additional character comes from a Polytheneistic system; so it makes a difficult transition). JD> I agree with the not insulting religions. All regions, especially ones that spring up in the more modern times, have shady aspects to them (less we forget the Latter Day Saints came under fire for covering up a series of sexual assaults and pressure members to not file claims and let the church "deal with it"). The foundation of modern religion uses comes from a desire for power (again, taking into account I look at all religions from an "outsiders" view; strictly speaking if you belong to a religion you're going to believe yours is the exception). Remember your religion's dogma is all about avoiding wars, not starting them :) (though I guess in this scenario the need to evanagilize and the need to promote good unity are in conflict?) As to "which came first", most historians believe that monotheistic religions came second, and first were those worshipping the physical manifestations. It seems the same throughout... while written word took longer to develop in that harsher region than it did in the Asian/European areas, it is widely believed it was "no different" here; BUT nothing is known for certain since Judaism (and the spirit worshipping) predate writing there. As to who benefits, well, people benefit from seperation. We have a need to classify ourselves in groups. I don't think it's a great thing, but we are social animals, and our natural tendency is simply to want to seperate ourselves out and make ourselves feel "superior". Grasping a religion and saying that we're right and you're wrong gives us a sense of superiority, as well as makes us less fearful of the future (for if you feel some part of you, your "soul", is immortal, death becomes much easier to grasp). Remember that if you believe in the Omnipotent Omniscent god, he knew the devil "Satan" would fall and be created, he knew that if he just manifested we would all believe in him. If you believe in the JudoChristian god, you believe that it benefits God, not Satan, by having these fractures... he wanted it to be that way. Edited by EvilDave, Oct 25 2009, 08:51 PM.
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| HeraldofDoom | Oct 25 2009, 11:00 PM Post #104 |
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I'm atheist. And proud of it. I tried the whole religion thing, and let me tell you, I hated it. The way most (not all) religious people push their ideas and beliefs on others just... irks me. I know not all religious people do this, but the ones that do just give them all a bad name. I can understand these people wanting to "save" others, but when they (for example) go door to door to harass others with their wacky ideas who have plainly told them they aren't interested, or belittle science, or stand in a public square and tell everyone who passes by that they are sinners and they will go to hell (I have seen this one on my college campus). I am tolerant of religion and do not harass or belittle its believers. That is, UNTIL they belittle my beliefs (i.e. they tell me I'm going to hell, say evolution is wrong, tell me I should be depressed by living a life without believing in something beyond). Once they do that, I unleash on them. I will make them feel as they tried to make me feel. Bring them to "my level". My favorite question to ask these bible-pushers? "Do you ACTUALLY believe the earth is 6000 years old?" The reactions are always great. |
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| Jdog | Oct 26 2009, 12:57 AM Post #105 |
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I aggree with you in a large way Herald. When you try to push a belief of anything on someone you always just tick them off, usually to the point that they will never even consider what you have to say again. We are all imperfect though and sometimes people can't take a hint. Deep down you probably know their motives are good, but boy do you just want to slap them in the face =D.... To answer your question. Their is abundant evidence that the world is far older than 6000 years... The bible doesn't say that it is only that old however. It does mention 6 days or units of time. However in regard to these 'creative days', it has this to say about God's timeline: the psalmist says: “For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch during the night.” (Ps 90:2, 4) Correspondingly, the apostle Peter writes that “one day is with God as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8) For man a thousand years represents 365000 + units of day and night, but to God it could be as one unbroken period of time. Man's timetable is far different from a being that does not reside in our solar system and he is not affected by its solar system orbits...etc...For him a day is one uninterrupted period of time in which he carries out some purposeful activity. Kind of like a days work....you begin a task at dawn and finish it at daybreak. The order of things created in the scriptures is accurate. But the context of days has to be cross referenced to get the full picture. Its not our timeline its God's. I hope that was a satisfactory answer of that question. |
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