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| Team Superman: Kandor + 4 drop Superman- Clark Kent | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 14 2012, 03:38 PM (608 Views) | |
| ThatsNasty! | Sep 14 2012, 03:38 PM Post #1 |
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I have a question about this contradictory. I had the "Kandor, city in a bottle" location out. "Characters you control protected by Team Superman characters can’t be attacked." And i also had a protected "Superman-Clark Kent" in play. "Cosmic: Activate {>} Remove target Team Superman defender you control from this attack. Superman becomes the defender this attack." Scenario: My opponent had the initiative. He attacked one of my front row characters. So i activated "Superman-Clark Kent" to redirect the attack to him. But i also had "Kandor, City In a bottle". As Superman was being protected, does the attack get absorbed by him? Is it still legal to use his power while being protected and with Kandor, city in a bottle in play. And if it is legal, does the attacker ready again or is he just exhasted? Thanks you |
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| AlphaSilvr | Sep 14 2012, 03:52 PM Post #2 |
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Yes you can use Superman's power. When an ability changes defenders DURING an attack, its is still considered "legal" even if it normally would not be. I will find the ruling but give me a minute. :P EDIT: Here is the rules text:
Edited by AlphaSilvr, Sep 14 2012, 03:56 PM.
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| Drstrange | Sep 14 2012, 03:55 PM Post #3 |
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You can still use the power of Superman, he will become the defender and the attack concludes as normal. Kandor prevents protected characters from becoming attacked. The opponent declares an attack on the frontrow character. The attack becomes legal. (Attacker and Defender characteristics are given out). You use the power of Superman and the attack gets directed to him. Attack concludes. Edit 1: Hehe, nice one Alpha, was just copying the exact same ruling 602.5a, beat me to it Edit 2: This might be useful too, from the "attacked" characteristic "A character that "can’t be attacked" can’t be proposed as a defender. It can still become a defender through modifiers. Such modifiers can be applied to any character that meets the restrictions within the modifier’s text, even if that character could not legally be attacked." Edited by Drstrange, Sep 14 2012, 04:01 PM.
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| ThatsNasty! | Sep 14 2012, 04:09 PM Post #4 |
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Thanks guys... So what about using the other ability from Kandor? "Activate Exchange the positions of two characters you control in the same area." If a front row character is attacked, then i switch with a support row character, to protect it. Does the attack still conclude? or is it negated? |
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| Drstrange | Sep 14 2012, 04:15 PM Post #5 |
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Once a character becomes attacked and the "attacker" and "defender" characteristics are given out, you can't stop the attack anymore by making the "declaration" illegal (that step is already passed). Moving characters to a protected space/hidden doesn't stop an attack from concluding once it's declared legal. So nope, swapping the possition of the "defender" with Kandor doesn't stop the attack from concluding. Edited by Drstrange, Sep 14 2012, 04:17 PM.
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| ThatsNasty! | Sep 14 2012, 04:24 PM Post #6 |
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So i was thinking this card was broken... haha, I guess i just thought since they cant even be attacked, it takes away the attacker and defender characteristic. Like i thought the power of the card goes on the chain as a modifier so it nulls the attack. |
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| AlphaSilvr | Sep 14 2012, 04:31 PM Post #7 |
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Nope. Also one reason the Crime Lords Armed Escort can be so dangerous. Does the same thing, but you can make even characters that would normally be an illegal defender defend for the character you want to protect. :D EDIT: The reason it works is because you can't activate it until there is a defender. Once the defender and attacker characteristics are given, both of the legality checks have been made and no longer take place. :D Kind of the same thing as putting characters into play if you already have one in play with the same name. The "put into play" wording goes around the normal Uniqueness check. They are what I like to call by-pass rules. :D Edited by AlphaSilvr, Sep 14 2012, 04:33 PM.
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| ThatsNasty! | Sep 14 2012, 04:39 PM Post #8 |
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Ok, i get it, i was just reading the rules on Proposing Attacks and the attack supstep haha. One more question though, say the proposing attacker has no flight and range and he is attacking an unprotected support row character. And i am able to move Superman- Kal El in front of him... Does the attack get nullified and the attacker ready?? |
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| Drstrange | Sep 14 2012, 05:17 PM Post #9 |
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The attack still concludes as normal, here aswell, once the attack is legal moving characters or changing formations etc can't stop the attack from concluding. (after the attack is declared legal the only check that is going to be made is on conclusion "is there a character (atleast one) with the 'attacker' characteristic and is there a character with the 'defender' characteristic." But once those characteristics have been handed out you can't stop the attack from happening by making the "attack legality check" illegal, cuz that one already happened. However (provided the Kal El has his Cosmic counter) moving him in front of you defender wil give said defender the invulnerability and reinforcement during the conclusion of the attack. EDIT: You gotta see it as follows: -Propose attack. (like announcing this character wants to attack that one). -Window for effects. (effects to make the proposed attack illegal should happen here). -Attack legality check. (not legal: propose new attack or pass, legal: attacker(s) exhaust and 'attacker' and 'defender' characteristics are handed out.) -Window for effects. (combat pumps, reïnforcements etc can be played here, note that effects with "target defender/attacker" can only be played from here). -Check for 'attacker' (at least one) and 'defender' characteristics. (are they still there? Yes: 'attacker(s)' and 'defender' do battle, No defender: attacker readies, No attacker: nothing really happens). Hope these steps help abit and if I forgot something feel free to fill it in :) (the "window for effects" are a whole story on their own with priority and passing etc. don't think that needs more explanation though :P ) Edited by Drstrange, Sep 14 2012, 05:29 PM.
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| OMB | Sep 14 2012, 07:36 PM Post #10 |
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Strange sort of touched on this, but, for clarity's sake, you can make an attack illegal with Kandor's second power. There are two legality checks when making an attack. The first one is upon declaration (i.e. you can't propose an attack with a character in the support row without range, you can't propose an attack against a protected character with a character that doesn't have flight, etc.). The second checks at the start of the attack substep to make sure the attack hasn't become illegal since the declaration.So if they declare an attack and you move people so the proposed defender is protected the attack will fail the second legality check. However, the characters won't exhaust to become attackers so they'll be free to redeclare at a different character. If you wait until the attack substep has already started and a character has gained the defender status then it is too late to make the attack illegal. |
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| ThatsNasty! | Sep 14 2012, 07:53 PM Post #11 |
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Well, then if the attacks are checked like that, then for "kandor," if i do a switcharoo or use "Superman, Clark Kents" power after the proposed attack, we both lose the attacker and defender characteristic, because then kandor is put on the chain before the attack substep starts, therefore when the attack is checked again it negates the attack, right? Then that player is stayed exhasted. Right
Edited by ThatsNasty!, Sep 14 2012, 07:54 PM.
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| AlphaSilvr | Sep 14 2012, 08:03 PM Post #12 |
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No. Here is Superman's text:
You need to remove a TS defender from the attack. Since the defender characteristic isn't given until AFTER the second legality check and AFTER the exhausting of the attackers, the attack will NOT conclude because you changed the defender. There are few ways to may an attack illegal during that proposed attack "phase". Basically, you need to exhaust the proposed attackers (because then they cannot exhaust to attack) or have the defender switch areas (Switch a visible character to the hidden area, making the attack illegal since attackers can't normally attack hidden characters). In these cases, the attack is made illegal and the attackers do not get to exhaust (unless you exhausted the proposed attacker to make it illegal), thus they can usually propose another attack. |
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| AlphaSilvr | Sep 14 2012, 08:05 PM Post #13 |
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Sorry, didn't see OMB's post. But you may want to reread the last part as he explained why what you said doesn't work. Edited by AlphaSilvr, Sep 14 2012, 08:06 PM.
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| ThatsNasty! | Sep 14 2012, 08:14 PM Post #14 |
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Ok hah, but what im saying is that Kandors ability is put on the chain when the attack is checked again. |
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| AlphaSilvr | Sep 14 2012, 08:20 PM Post #15 |
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Nope. 1) Propose attack - This is a part where no one can play abilities or effects 2) Legality Check - No one can play abilities or effects 3) If Attack is legal abilities and effects may be played (Usually to try and make attack illegal) 4) Legality re-check - This is a part where NO ONE can play abilities or effects 5) If legal, Attacker/Team Attacker and Defender characteristics are given - Attackers also Exhaust - NO ONE can play abilities or effects 6) Abilities and Effects may now be played Legality checks do not use the chain, thus you cannot chain Kandor's ability to the exhaust of the attackers or the legality check itself. You only get two chances to use Kandor's ability. Once after the first legality check, which would make the attack illegal, but the PROPOSED attacker would NOT have exhausted yet, thus they could propose another attack. The other instance is AFTER the second legality check, but it wouldn't matter at this point as there are no more legality checks for this attack and it would still go on as normal. Edited by AlphaSilvr, Sep 14 2012, 08:21 PM.
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