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Evasion Question
Topic Started: Oct 15 2012, 09:19 PM (271 Views)
OMB
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I had a quick question about Evasion.
Quote:
 
Evasion

"Evasion" is a keyword that represents a payment power on a character. That payment power reads, "Stun this character >>> At the start of the recovery phase this turn, recover this character." (See rule 706.5.)

Stunning a character in this way will cause its controller to take stun endurance loss. (See section 708.11b.) Since stunning the character is the cost of this power, the stunning can't be replaced by any modifier. (See rule 513.5d.)

If a character uses evasion, the character with this power is the source of the stun since it is a cost of the character's power.
Is there a difference between a Keyword representing a payment power and that character actually having that payment power?

For instance there are cards like 5 drop MVL Mr. Sinister, Only Human, 5 drop Spidey that cause characters to "lose powers and keywords" which makes me think there may be slight differences between a regular power and a power granted by a keyword.

Basically what I want to know is if cards like 5 drop Lex Luthor, 8 drop Ra's, and 1 drop Scrambler that say opponents "can't use character payment powers" will cause characters to not be able to Evade.

Furthermore, can things like Utility Belt and MEX Ultimate Nulifier negate Evasion since they can negate "payment powers"? My inclination is that they can since Shift expressly says that it represents powers that "can't be negated" while Evasion has no such text (but I seem to remember hearing that Evasion couldn't be negated once).

Just curious about some other people's input. I would think that Evasion is affected by the previously noted characters and can be negated as a normal payment power, but I certainly may be missing something.
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Neuro2k5
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i believe the character would lose evasion. since it is a power.
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kariggi
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The reason this is confusing is of course because UDE changed the rules with the very last set, the one with shift of course and blanket made "keyword payment powers" unegateable. So effects that effect payment powers don't effect keyword payment powers unless they specifically effect keyword...Now.

Hope that helps.
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OMB
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kariggi
Oct 15 2012, 10:18 PM
The reason this is confusing is of course because UDE changed the rules with the very last set, the one with shift of course and blanket made "keyword payment powers" unegateable. So effects that effect payment powers don't effect keyword payment powers unless they specifically effect keyword...Now.

Hope that helps.
Wow that's really awful. I checked the MEV FAQ document and saw a bullet point along those lines then dug through the CRD and found this gem:
CRD
 
501.1a Game text referring to "payment powers" refers only to powers with a printed arrow (>>>), and doesn't refer to keywords which represent payment powers (like shift and evasion). However, references to payment powers in these rules do refer to such keyword powers, and using such keyword powers does create payment effects.
Thanks for the tip. I really hate this ruling, I wonder if they actually felt that Evasion deserved to be upgraded to be almost as untouchable as Shift or if they just included it in the rule change to avoid confusion since they wanted Shift to be completely untouchable and it worked in a similar way to Evasion. They've had payment power hate forever though (Utility Belt and Ra's in DOR and Scarlet Witch and Repulsor Ray in MAV) so I'm not sure why they felt the need to make the switch to Evasion all of a sudden. I suppose stuff like 5 drop Lex and Scrambler absolutely murder an evasion deck at next to no cost, but Marauders as a whole destroy Evasion decks and they certainly didn't seem concerned about Lex when DCL came out. Hooray for MEV continuing to mess with common sense!
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kariggi
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I think evasion got swept into it. The fear i believe was having the use of resource points (shift) negated as a payment effect making it unplayable.
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OMB
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I totally understand why they made Shift's effects non-negatable because paying resource points are involved. Imagine trying to shift in a 5 drop and getting hit with Utility Belt... 5 resource points down the drain. What I didn't think about is that they are payment powers on character cards thus making them "character payment powers" so cards like Lex and Scrambler could completely neuter Shift.

As far as I can tell Evasion got swept up because it is the only other Keyword that represents an underlying payment power and they wanted all the cards that refered to "payment powers" to not interact with Shift and I guess they thought that was easier to do with an umbrella "hidden power" rule than another caveat on Shift (because really the more caveats you add to Shift the less legitimate it seems, amirite?).

All this being said I'm sure now that Lex and Scrambler and any other card that refers to "payment powers" and not "keywords" will not affect Evasion. HOWEVER, I think that cards like Utility Belt, Ultimate Nullifer, and anything else that can negate "payment effects" can still negate Evasion because nothing says that Evasion is non-negatable.
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OnyxWeapon
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our hobby store unanimously decided to play with the old payment rules at our last event. mind you, it was council silver age, so MEV wasn't presen't either. on the other side of the coin shift is still an interact-able keyword. MUN spidey and mr sinister DO hurt them. and then there's the burn they take from from the stun. the face shots direct..... etc.
Edited by OnyxWeapon, Oct 16 2012, 07:41 AM.
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I was really just wondering who would win in a matchup between 5 drop Lex and 3 drop Spider-Girl, but it got me curious about Evasion in general...

For the record it looks like Spider-Girl wins. She's pretty ridiculous.
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