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Team Attack Clarity MUN Vision; Some clarification is needed on order of attacks.
Topic Started: Oct 27 2012, 11:24 AM (251 Views)
TheRidge
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Okay so here's my problem. I've been reading the rules errata and came across the Vision team attack scenario. In which it states that because they can cause breakthrough you compare attacks individually. For the example they used Vision and a 2ATK Beast versus a character with 5 DEF. Now it states that if you attack with Vision first and then Beast you do 3 Breakthrough with Vision and 2 with Beast.

Does this mean that if Vision attacks first the defenders DEF value is reduced to 0 for the second attacker. If so then a team attack with Vision and Ares mighty avenger with 13ATK, would so 3 from Vision and a full 13 from Ares plus his double stun effect?
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Drstrange
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There is no "attacking first" in a team-attack.
You attack with Vision (8atk) and Beast (2atk) into a defender with 5def:
The combined team-attack is 10atk, Vision's power lets the attack do breakthrough so that is calculated as 10atk over 5def = 5breakthrough endurance loss (and normal stun endurance loss).

Ares (13atk)+Vision (8atk) would be a combined team-attack of 21atk.
That over a 5def defender would leave 16 breakthrough endurance loss (and the double stun endurance loss from Ares effect too).
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TheRidge
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That's just what I wanted to check because it seemed a bit foggy in the rules document I downloaded. It did specify you attack with Vision first due to him having the team attack breakthrough ruling. As it said if you compared Beast then only the breakthrough damage from Vision would go through.

It wasn't worded very clearly which was why I decided to ask here.
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Drstrange
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I'm not sure what document you have and if those are some specific inquiries about Vision orso. It sounds very hazy indeed.
Team-attacks just add all the attack values from the attackers together into on (big) number and that is the attack value of that attack. There is only 1 attack, so no first attacking with X followed by Y.

Asking is always good when in doubt :)
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OMB
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What you probably saw was the info from the MUN FAQ document.
MUN FAQ
 
Vision, Young Avenger
Character, 4, Avengers, 8/6
While Vision is team attacking with exactly one other character, team attacks can cause breakthrough.

Team attacks with Vision and exactly one other character attacking a defending character conclude as follows. First the attacking player chooses one of the two attackers and applies its ATK (A1) against the defender's DEF (D).

  • If A1 is greater than or equal to D, that attacker causes (A1-D) breakthrough and the second attacker causes breakthrough equal to its ATK.

  • If A1 is less than D, that attacker causes no breakthrough, and the second attacker's ATK (A2) is applied. If (A1+A2) is greater than D, the second attacker causes (A1+A2-D) breakthrough.
This distinction is very important if you have a character that has a power that triggers off of causing breakthrough. This is the only case in the game where you actually choose how the order in which your team attacking characters' ATK values are applied. Whichever character you pick to go first applies just their ATK to the defender's DEF. If if they can cause breakthrough themselves they do so and then the entirety of the second characters ATK is breaktrough. If the first character's ATK value is lower than the defender's DEF then you apply the second attacker's ATK to the remaining DEF and any surplus is breakthrough for the second character.
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HeroComplex
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For clarity, I imagine this CRD entry's example is what led to the question:
Quote:
 
602.7c For team attacks that specify that they cause breakthrough, if the attackers' combined ATK is greater than the defender's DEF, the defender's controller loses endurance equal to the difference. Anything looking for a breakthrough value will use each attacker's ATK separately, after it has been applied against the defender's DEF in the order chosen by the attacking player.

Example: You team attack an opposing 5 DEF character with Beast, Furry Blue Scientist, who has 2 ATK, and Vision, Young Avenger, who has 8 ATK and reads "While Vision is team attacking with exactly one other character, team attacks can cause breakthrough." As that attack concludes, you choose to apply Vision's ATK first followed by Beast's. The defending player takes 5 breakthough (3 from Vision and 2 from Beast).

Example: As the above attack concludes, instead, you choose to apply Beast's ATK first followed by Vision's. The defending player takes 5 breakthough from Vision (Beast causes no breakthough).
Another couple notes---if this is the document you're talking about, it's just the Comprehensive Rules Document. For this game, we only talk about "errata" when a card's text was changed after printing.

I suggest not thinking of this as the characters "attacking" separately, that's probably just going to get you confused. There is still only one attack. This rule is just about the order that you compare ATK values against the DEF value, it's all still happening in one attack conclusion.

Is there something in particular you're confused or concerned about in your example with Ares? I'm curious, because Ares' power doesn't have anything to do with breakthrough---you've changed the numbers involved compared to Vision + Beast, but otherwise it's essentially the same scenario. Were you concerned that the character would stun too early for Ares to trigger, maybe?
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TheRidge
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Well the reason I mentioned Ares was just because I wanted this combo. With Vision causing breakthrough and Ares attacking second. It means I get 3 breakthrough with Vision another 13 ATK straight through from Ares. Then the double stun endurance. Which I wanted to check was how I worked as it seems pretty deadly. If you hit a 4 drop character and then do 3+13 breakthrough, followed with 8 stun endurance.

Just wanted to make sure this was out it worked. To further check for future use. Oh and that is the information I had read which I couldn't quite get my head around.
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HeroComplex
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Even if you applied Ares' ATK value first, though, you'd get the same result---a total of 16 breakthrough and double the stun endurance loss. Obviously, if you are dealing with a larger character in a real game you won't be inflicting quite so much endurance loss, but it won't be common for the order of these two characters to matter. Like OMB said, you'd need some power that checks for breakthrough to be around before the question of order of ATKs would actually affect anything.

That's why I'm curious about what aspect of Vision's power had you worried, I want to make sure there's nothing else about the situation potentially tripping you up. Is there a particular concern you have about which order you apply Vision's and Ares' ATK values, that made you think what you were aiming for wouldn't work? Or another outcome you thought might happen instead?

And keep in mind, as long as we're talking about how Vision does and doesn't work, team attacking with Vision into a smaller character like a 4-drop 1) doesn't prevent the opponent from reinforcing, and 2) opens Vision up to being stunned back by the defender, in case you were hoping to use Vision's power to somehow avoid those possibilities.
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TheRidge
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I just wondered more than anything not do much Vision causing breakthrough. It was the second character I wasn't sure whether you'd do his full ATK as breakthrough or reduce it by the defender DEF value first. As I say just wanted to check I couldn't be caught out with the attack. Of course my hope is to buff Visions DEF value. Then if it's a higher character they could ATK Ares, so that I could ready him with Reckless Youth. Then prey they don't have anything for an automatic KO to put on the chain.

Also the wording of the document made it sound like if you attacked with someone before that couldn't break the DEF value then you'd only do the breakthrough with Vision. Still seemed to be the same I just wanted to check things for my Avengers deck.
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Drstrange
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The wording is there probably just for some rare occasion.
Like in theory if you have a couple of team-ups Avengers/Brotherhood and an Avengers/squadron supreme team-up.
Making Vision Avengers/Squadron supreme/Brotherhood.
Now if Vision would team attack with:

Power Princes, Zarda (7atk/7def)
If Power Princess would cause breakthrough while attacking a character, instead, a character of your choice gets +3 ATK / +3 DEF this turn.

And you would play a card like:

Kill the Flatscans
Whenever target Brotherhood attacker you control causes 3 or more breakthrough while attacking a character this attack, KO that character.

If they attack a 12def character with their combined 15 (8+7) the attack would do 3 breakthrough, but now it is important if Vision did that breakthrough (as the he is the only one with the Brotherhood affiliation) or if Power Princes did the breakthrough. If it was Vision, Kill the Flatscans would trigger and if it was Power Princes, her power would trigger.

This is an example I could come up with why that ruling would have been written, there are probably easier other examples (that involve less cards), but I did my best :D

EDIT: As I post this I see that I'm failing, because those team-ups actually would give Power Princes the Brotherhood affiliation too... sorry, still did my best :D Anyone got a better/real example?

EDIT 2: As I reread Power Princes my example actually isn't bad at all, just gotta target Vision with kill the flatscans (because power rinces can't cause breakthrough) ^^
Am I confusing? probably yes! Just ignore this post, kinda stupid to write at the end of a post maybe :D
Edited by Drstrange, Oct 27 2012, 11:36 PM.
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